What is Silvopasturing? - silvopasture2024-03-28T17:56:00Zhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/forum/topics/what-is-silvopasturing?feed=yes&xn_auth=noI really want to read that bo…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-03-05:6457695:Comment:199382018-03-05T15:22:21.749ZEdmund Brownhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/EdmundBrown
<p>I really want to read that book you cite, Roy!</p>
<p>I recently re-read <em>Meat a Benign Extravagance</em> by Simon Fairlie and he draws heavily from Vera's work in one of the chapters. Amazon has <em>Grazing Ecology and Forest History</em>, but it is quite expensive... trying my libraries now...<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Roy Brubaker said:…</cite></p>
<p>I really want to read that book you cite, Roy!</p>
<p>I recently re-read <em>Meat a Benign Extravagance</em> by Simon Fairlie and he draws heavily from Vera's work in one of the chapters. Amazon has <em>Grazing Ecology and Forest History</em>, but it is quite expensive... trying my libraries now...<br/> <br/> <cite>Roy Brubaker said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://silvopasture.ning.com/forum/topics/what-is-silvopasturing?id=6457695%3ATopic%3A19921&page=2#6457695Comment20240"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Thanks for starting this conversation Brett. The book by Franz Vera; Grazing Ecology and Forest History provides a really interesting hypothesis that postulates large ungulate browsing impacts as a dominant driver in forest successional pathways and patch mosaic patterns at a landscape level; even in temperate hardwood regions of western and central Europe with very similar ecotypes to our own.</p>
<p>Vera's "donut hole" theory of forest plant colonization and expansion within a patchy mosaic of forest, grasslands, and scrub-shrub habitats (and I'm assuming all the transitional stages between the three thrown in) is an interesting "split the difference" hypotheses between Clements "primieval/steady state" ideas and Gleason's "plant communities are what plant communities can be; no real rhyme or reason to it" both of course, which grew out of essentially the same data set gleaned from the prehistoric polynological record.</p>
<p>Vera revisits this data set and compares it to current continuously grazed "walds" in western Europe supporting free ranging herds of cattle and horses and finds some striking similarities. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Not quite a true "savannah" except here and there at a microsite/patch level. . . and definitely not a "silvopasture" as we currently or in past history have practiced it. . . but suggests at least some evidence that at a landscape level, woody and grass dominated communities are likely to split about half and half under high levels of large ungulate browsing over the long term with or without a fire regime to sustain the grass component or patches. In the "New World". . . fire regimes were no doubt also a significant factor and may have increased the acres of true "hardwood savannahs" even here in the east in our more fertile soil areas and where more sedentary/agrarian indigenous tribes were the primary landscape "tenders."</p>
<p>I personally like the term "silvopasture" as to me it is simply the intentional husbandry of grass and woody plants by humans at small spatial scales. It builds off of what we know or can deduce about nature's processes without thinking we can mimic or duplicate them given the economic and cultural constraints impacting practitioner decisions. But I think there is sound ecological evidence that it is both sustainable. . . and about as "natural" as any other agricultural or silvicultural method we are currently employing.</p>
<p>RB<br/> <br/> <cite>Edmund Brown said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://silvopasture.ning.com/forum/topics/what-is-silvopasturing#6457695Comment20145"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hold your horses! I talked about this with my wife last night and she suggested we consider "Arbor pasture" (or perhaps some elision of the two - arbopasture, arborasture, arbasture, etc). She thought it would be obscure enough that I'd still get time to explain what I mean when I drop it, but that more people would have some sort of conception that Arbors have to do with trees. She thinks "silvo" and "sylvan" are more unusual sounding than "arbor". </p>
<p>My preference is still for 'silvopasture', because I like the way it rolls off the tongue, and the pedant in me recoils when there is a perfectly good word for something (silvopasture) and people feel the need to either coin a neologism or go use other words that are less precise or have other meanings (savanna). Another example, "he gifted it to me", rather than "gave".</p>
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</blockquote> so europeanesque
anyone for…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-03-02:6457695:Comment:201562018-03-02T23:57:39.365ZBrett Chedzoyhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/BrettChedzoy
<p>so europeanesque</p>
<p></p>
<p>anyone for "gladegrazing"?</p>
<p>so europeanesque</p>
<p></p>
<p>anyone for "gladegrazing"?</p> They called it "silvo-pasture…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-03-02:6457695:Comment:199372018-03-02T22:18:52.242ZJoe Oreficehttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/JoeOrefice
<p>They called it "silvo-pasture" at the 2016 "World Congress Silvo-Pastoral Systems". Just to bring in an international thought to this conversation. </p>
<p>They called it "silvo-pasture" at the 2016 "World Congress Silvo-Pastoral Systems". Just to bring in an international thought to this conversation. </p> Silvopasture is still winning…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-03-02:6457695:Comment:200432018-03-02T18:47:52.833ZBrett Chedzoyhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/BrettChedzoy
<p>Silvopasture is still winning, but "arbasture", "arbasturing" and "arbastoralists" do have a nice ring :)</p>
<p>Silvopasture is still winning, but "arbasture", "arbasturing" and "arbastoralists" do have a nice ring :)</p> Thanks for starting this conv…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-03-01:6457695:Comment:202402018-03-01T22:55:23.675ZRoy Brubakerhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/RoyBrubaker
<p>Thanks for starting this conversation Brett. The book by Franz Vera; Grazing Ecology and Forest History provides a really interesting hypothesis that postulates large ungulate browsing impacts as a dominant driver in forest successional pathways and patch mosaic patterns at a landscape level; even in temperate hardwood regions of western and central Europe with very similar ecotypes to our own.</p>
<p>Vera's "donut hole" theory of forest plant colonization and expansion within a patchy…</p>
<p>Thanks for starting this conversation Brett. The book by Franz Vera; Grazing Ecology and Forest History provides a really interesting hypothesis that postulates large ungulate browsing impacts as a dominant driver in forest successional pathways and patch mosaic patterns at a landscape level; even in temperate hardwood regions of western and central Europe with very similar ecotypes to our own.</p>
<p>Vera's "donut hole" theory of forest plant colonization and expansion within a patchy mosaic of forest, grasslands, and scrub-shrub habitats (and I'm assuming all the transitional stages between the three thrown in) is an interesting "split the difference" hypotheses between Clements "primieval/steady state" ideas and Gleason's "plant communities are what plant communities can be; no real rhyme or reason to it" both of course, which grew out of essentially the same data set gleaned from the prehistoric polynological record.</p>
<p>Vera revisits this data set and compares it to current continuously grazed "walds" in western Europe supporting free ranging herds of cattle and horses and finds some striking similarities. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Not quite a true "savannah" except here and there at a microsite/patch level. . . and definitely not a "silvopasture" as we currently or in past history have practiced it. . . but suggests at least some evidence that at a landscape level, woody and grass dominated communities are likely to split about half and half under high levels of large ungulate browsing over the long term with or without a fire regime to sustain the grass component or patches. In the "New World". . . fire regimes were no doubt also a significant factor and may have increased the acres of true "hardwood savannahs" even here in the east in our more fertile soil areas and where more sedentary/agrarian indigenous tribes were the primary landscape "tenders."</p>
<p>I personally like the term "silvopasture" as to me it is simply the intentional husbandry of grass and woody plants by humans at small spatial scales. It builds off of what we know or can deduce about nature's processes without thinking we can mimic or duplicate them given the economic and cultural constraints impacting practitioner decisions. But I think there is sound ecological evidence that it is both sustainable. . . and about as "natural" as any other agricultural or silvicultural method we are currently employing.</p>
<p>RB<br/> <br/> <cite>Edmund Brown said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://silvopasture.ning.com/forum/topics/what-is-silvopasturing#6457695Comment20145"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hold your horses! I talked about this with my wife last night and she suggested we consider "Arbor pasture" (or perhaps some elision of the two - arbopasture, arborasture, arbasture, etc). She thought it would be obscure enough that I'd still get time to explain what I mean when I drop it, but that more people would have some sort of conception that Arbors have to do with trees. She thinks "silvo" and "sylvan" are more unusual sounding than "arbor". </p>
<p>My preference is still for 'silvopasture', because I like the way it rolls off the tongue, and the pedant in me recoils when there is a perfectly good word for something (silvopasture) and people feel the need to either coin a neologism or go use other words that are less precise or have other meanings (savanna). Another example, "he gifted it to me", rather than "gave".</p>
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</blockquote> Hold your horses! I talked ab…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-02-27:6457695:Comment:201452018-02-27T01:45:18.493ZEdmund Brownhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/EdmundBrown
<p>Hold your horses! I talked about this with my wife last night and she suggested we consider "Arbor pasture" (or perhaps some elision of the two - arbopasture, arborasture, arbasture, etc). She thought it would be obscure enough that I'd still get time to explain what I mean when I drop it, but that more people would have some sort of conception that Arbors have to do with trees. She thinks "silvo" and "sylvan" are more unusual sounding than "arbor". </p>
<p>My preference is still for…</p>
<p>Hold your horses! I talked about this with my wife last night and she suggested we consider "Arbor pasture" (or perhaps some elision of the two - arbopasture, arborasture, arbasture, etc). She thought it would be obscure enough that I'd still get time to explain what I mean when I drop it, but that more people would have some sort of conception that Arbors have to do with trees. She thinks "silvo" and "sylvan" are more unusual sounding than "arbor". </p>
<p>My preference is still for 'silvopasture', because I like the way it rolls off the tongue, and the pedant in me recoils when there is a perfectly good word for something (silvopasture) and people feel the need to either coin a neologism or go use other words that are less precise or have other meanings (savanna). Another example, "he gifted it to me", rather than "gave".</p> Sounds like there's consensus…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-02-26:6457695:Comment:199282018-02-26T14:38:39.456ZBrett Chedzoyhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/BrettChedzoy
<p>Sounds like there's consensus for "silvopasturing" - good!</p>
<p>You all make good points. Some other things that have changed in the past few centuries is the influx of non-native cool season grasses and non-native shrubs. For the most part, we don't have a lot of non-native trees - though we have lost some important species like Elm & Chestnut... and now, Ash. Whatever the landscape may have looked like several centuries ago couldn't be easily re-created or maintained today thanks…</p>
<p>Sounds like there's consensus for "silvopasturing" - good!</p>
<p>You all make good points. Some other things that have changed in the past few centuries is the influx of non-native cool season grasses and non-native shrubs. For the most part, we don't have a lot of non-native trees - though we have lost some important species like Elm & Chestnut... and now, Ash. Whatever the landscape may have looked like several centuries ago couldn't be easily re-created or maintained today thanks to a lot of new plants, pests, fauna and land use. </p> Hey Joe:
Sorry, I was typing…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-02-26:6457695:Comment:202362018-02-26T13:32:32.868ZSteve Gabrielhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/SteveGabriel
<p>Hey Joe:</p>
<p>Sorry, I was typing this fast so it didn't come clear...no, I haven't seen USDA specifically define "forest pasture", unlike woodland pasture as you discuss in that excellent article you wrote.</p>
<p>What I mean to say is that really from the layperson perspective I think both "forest pasture" and "woodland pasture" are essentially seen as the same, I have heard them used both to indicate fenced off forest, which yea is that 15 - 20% range I quoted from census...</p>
<p>As…</p>
<p>Hey Joe:</p>
<p>Sorry, I was typing this fast so it didn't come clear...no, I haven't seen USDA specifically define "forest pasture", unlike woodland pasture as you discuss in that excellent article you wrote.</p>
<p>What I mean to say is that really from the layperson perspective I think both "forest pasture" and "woodland pasture" are essentially seen as the same, I have heard them used both to indicate fenced off forest, which yea is that 15 - 20% range I quoted from census...</p>
<p>As terms then, both feel compromised and its why I see the word "silvopasture" as best, even if it takes more explaining. I often define "silvics" when introducing people to the word, so as to emphasize that we are caretaking the woods, not just tossing animals in there. (Which you know full well!)</p>
<p>Happy sugaring!<br/><br/>Steve</p>
<p></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Joe Orefice said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://silvopasture.ning.com/forum/topics/what-is-silvopasturing#6457695Comment20034"><div><p>Steve, have you seen the USDA define “forest pasture”? In the census of Agriculture they just say woodland pasture and let respondents self classify their pasture. The 15-20% stat could include some silvopasture but likely it’s just fenced off woods. That journal of forestry article Brett linked to above presents the USDA numbers and discusses the caveats. </p>
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</blockquote> Joe,
I suppose I should have…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-02-25:6457695:Comment:202352018-02-25T01:13:31.035ZEdmund Brownhttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/EdmundBrown
<p>Joe,</p>
<p>I suppose I should have been a little more specific about the time frame I envisioned various patchworks of meadow-scrub-forest developing. I also am pretty comfortable with the idea that the intentional, human ignited fires could have been the primary driver of an 'open' forest 500 years ago.</p>
<p>My understanding is that many (most?) trees native to the northeast have been around for a couple million years. Same with most of the megafauna in the fossil record up until an…</p>
<p>Joe,</p>
<p>I suppose I should have been a little more specific about the time frame I envisioned various patchworks of meadow-scrub-forest developing. I also am pretty comfortable with the idea that the intentional, human ignited fires could have been the primary driver of an 'open' forest 500 years ago.</p>
<p>My understanding is that many (most?) trees native to the northeast have been around for a couple million years. Same with most of the megafauna in the fossil record up until an eyeblink ago geologically speaking. I believe the dormant buds that many hardwoods harbor along their trunks and large branches are evolutionary baggage from a time when ragged delimbing by a mammoth or giant ground sloth was a distinct possibility...</p>
<p>In any case, you intuited the general thrust of the argument I wished to make (poorly as I may have done so) - that looking back to what <em>was</em> can inform the present, but it is not necessarily something we need to aspire to recreate.</p> Steve, have you seen the USDA…tag:silvopasture.ning.com,2018-02-24:6457695:Comment:200342018-02-24T14:50:03.962ZJoe Oreficehttps://silvopasture.ning.com/profile/JoeOrefice
<p>Steve, have you seen the USDA define “forest pasture”? In the census of Agriculture they just say woodland pasture and let respondents self classify their pasture. The 15-20% stat could include some silvopasture but likely it’s just fenced off woods. That journal of forestry article Brett linked to above presents the USDA numbers and discusses the caveats. </p>
<p>Steve, have you seen the USDA define “forest pasture”? In the census of Agriculture they just say woodland pasture and let respondents self classify their pasture. The 15-20% stat could include some silvopasture but likely it’s just fenced off woods. That journal of forestry article Brett linked to above presents the USDA numbers and discusses the caveats. </p>